ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1966 Mustang => Topic started by: Josep on May 13, 2016, 02:52:52 PM
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Hi,
Here is a VIN number coming from a FB 66 GT (?) from a friend of mine.
I say GT because there are several coincidences despite of several mods as well. 289 engine has been be replaced time ago for a 302. Interior looks correct, with instrument bezels and glove box de luxe. Gas cap, GT emblems on fenders, M U S T A N G pin letters looks also correct. But the VIN "tag" on apron looks extrange to me. Was that a "common" tag or VIN should had been casted on apron.?
Josep
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I don't see a picture of the tag...
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This is a good site to get you started with figuring out if the car may be a factory GT. A good place to start is the exhaust hangers especially behind the rear seat.
http://www.mustangdreams.com/verify-1965-1966-mustang-gt.htm
Aftermarket parts vendors have made lots of money selling GT dress up parts for many years. There are ways to tell the difference between factory (or Ford over the counter) from reproduction parts. Original gas caps have a unique stamp on the inside and numbers cast into them. (I posted a few pictures here last year) http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=6567.msg59788#msg59788
Foglights have FoMoCo stamped in them and a part number cast in the back (there is a repo fog light with a number cast in it a little different and no FoMoCo) GT badges (the ones in the picture look to be a different shade of red than what I have seen on original cars), GT exhuast tips measure slightly different than originals...and the list goes on.
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First agree with Chris - no picture of the door tag, engine compartment VIN or buck tag (depending on where it was built)Of course nay of these can be faked or non-original to the car/body
People have been making GT's since the 70's out of non-GT cars so many will have original parts installed on a car today. At the same time a factory GT can have a ton of repo parts on it and still be an original GT while a fake can have all original GT parts on it and still be non-factory.
A conclusion can only IMHO be drawn out of a full inspected looking for both what should be there (often included in published list of "How to tell if you have a GT") as well as features that should not be there.
Figuring out if a car is not GT is allot easier than determining if the car is a factory GT. Easy ones start with the VIN with either a A or K engine code. But lack or presence of emblems is not since that has to include looking at the metal layer of the car to see if there were holes there originally and if the panel is original to the car.
Like any inspection of a car - its not easy no quick unless you uncover a fake quickly
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Oooopsssss..!!! Forgot to attach..!!
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Oooopsssss..!!! Forgot to attach..!!
Home made - non factory. Maybe a result of front panels being replaced or something much worst. Time for some particle disassembly and detective work
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That's what I thought Jeff. It looked like home made tag, with 'modern' rivits.
Car has no door tag nor engine tag.
sglbbs, thanks for info, will check these things next time I visit my friend.
Trumpet exhaust are exactly the same in the car as the ones in the link you post.
Also brake pedal is the same.
Josep
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First agree with Chris - no picture of the door tag, engine compartment VIN or buck tag (depending on where it was built)Of course nay of these can be faked or non-original to the car/body
People have been making GT's since the 70's out of non-GT cars so many will have original parts installed on a car today. At the same time a factory GT can have a ton of repo parts on it and still be an original GT while a fake can have all original GT parts on it and still be non-factory.
A conclusion can only IMHO be drawn out of a full inspected looking for both what should be there (often included in published list of "How to tell if you have a GT") as well as features that should not be there.
Figuring out if a car is not GT is allot easier than determining if the car is a factory GT. Easy ones start with the VIN with either a A or K engine code. But lack or presence of emblems is not since that has to include looking at the metal layer of the car to see if there were holes there originally and if the panel is original to the car.
Like any inspection of a car - its not easy no quick unless you uncover a fake quickly
I agree with everything Jeff says. The link I provided is meant as a quick and easy cheat sheet but there are several other things not listed which should or....just as importantly....not be on a factory GT.
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That's what I thought Jeff. It looked like home made tag, with 'modern' rivits.
Car has no door tag nor engine tag.
sglbbs, thanks for info, will check these things next time I visit my friend.
Trumpet exhaust are exactly the same in the car as the ones in the link you post.
Also brake pedal is the same.
Josep
Josep,
Think of that list as a beginners guide to GT items. The rubber "Disc Brake" pad on the pedal is easily swapped. What is not as easy to swap is the metal portion of the pedal. There is a difference between drum and disc. The trumpet louvers may look the same but there is a noticeable difference to the trained eye. There was a discussion on this site a few months ago about the trumpets and how to spot a repo.
There are 2 additional hidden VINs, one under each fender back toward the firewall. Good luck with your investigation
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If the 2ND letter in the VIN # is truly T it's a Metuchen car. Metuchen cars had a buck tag placed on the fender aprons. Your tag would show PIO for Performance Image Option thus GT.
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Great info sglbbs..!! Lots of things to look for next time I visit this guy.!
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Richard, looks like it's a Metuchen car as for the buck tag shown, but I can't tell this tag is original, and looks it's not. A close view of the image shows the classic star at the end of the VIN, so maybe the original number is under the buck tag.!
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that is not the buck tag. it is a homemade vin tag. maybe the panel was replaced & this is how the reinstalled a vin.
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Richard, looks like it's a Metuchen car as for the buck tag shown, but I can't tell this tag is original, and looks it's not. A close view of the image shows the classic star at the end of the VIN, so maybe the original number is under the buck tag.!
Unfortunately (hope not) this home made and attached VIN tag is not over another VIN number. Of course it could be on the panel if the panel had been removed and used off a donor car but its going to cause some issues - especially in a non-US country. In the US it could first trigger a confiscation of the car and the owner would have to prove that they owned a car with that other number. Sure the paperwork only matches this top one.
Bottom line - we're all guessing and providing possibilities as well as warnings. You will not know until someone that knows what their looking at gets in there.
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Might need to check for the other 2 VINS on the car, one on the passenger side towards the cowel area and the other on the driver side by the hood hinge. Both would require the fender to be loosened and moved out a bit or removed depending on how far in they stamped it...
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If the car was built in Metuchen, you may also get lucky and find a build sheet taped to the harness behind the gauges and/or in the springs under one of the seats. If you do find one, it would answer most of your questions.
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Just like Gray Market vehicles brought into the United States, which require inspection and vin verification, some being issued a riveted aluminum tag I have seen this done in Germany as well. So many of the Ford vins were weak stampings and by the time the engine compartment is primed and painted, it can be difficult to read the vin. Of course we all know that many have the battery side apron replaced because the battery rust them out. Many are rusted out at the top corner of the overlap, even those that were relegated to arid climates. Being this is before '67. there should be three locations for the vin, if memory serves me correctly.
Left and right front aprons, right side under the fender, and the rear apron under the top edge of the fender.
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If the car was built in Metuchen, you may also get lucky and find a build sheet taped to the harness behind the gauges and/or in the springs under one of the seats. If you do find one, it would answer most of your questions.
Interior looks like it has been altered. If it was a factory GT the low profile rally pac would be installed. Also the interior blue looks funny with those colored seats.
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Interior looks like it has been altered. If it was a factory GT the low profile rally pac would be installed. Also the interior blue looks funny with those colored seats.
Rally pac was an option, not a standard GT piece from the factory.
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OK guys, thanks for your advices and comments. I will speak with my friend and explain what you all said.
Let's see what we find..
Josep
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FYI, this is a buck tag. This particular one is on my GT and you will note the PIO on the buck tag as was previously eluded to. Hope this helps...
I would caution that the presence of this tag does not make it a GT and the absence of it does does not mean it's not a GT. As others have said, there are a bunch of things that have to be noted to make sure it's a GT.
Allen
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FYI, this is a buck tag. This particular one is on my GT and you will note the PIO on the buck tag as was previously eluded to. Hope this helps...
I would caution that the presence of this tag does not make it a GT and the absence of it does does not mean it's not a GT. As others have said, there are a bunch of things that have to be noted to make sure it's a GT.
Allen
Hi Allen - you should post the picture in the NJ buck tag retaining screw thread as well - http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=13681.0
Ron
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Hi Allen - you should post the picture in the NJ buck tag retaining screw thread as well - http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=13681.0
Ron
Done.
Edit: Because I can't spell my own name correctly...
Allen
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Allen, yours it's a completely different buck tag from the one I've posed.
The one I showed here looks absolutely home-made.! But will investigate more.!
Josep
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Allen, yours it's a completely different buck tag from the one I've posed.
The one I showed here looks absolutely home-made.! But will investigate more.!
That's Allen's point. The tag you showed is NOT a buck tag. The one you showed is a piece of scrap metal with a VIN number stamped into it, covering the car's actual VIN number. It may have been done because the original stamping was damaged or not legible. Or it may have been done to perpetrate a fraud. Either way, the car did NOT come from Ford with that tag on it.
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+1. Completely agree with you Dave.!
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+1. Completely agree with you Dave.!
The worst-case scenario is that your friend purchased a stolen vehicle. It would be in his best interest to drill out the rivets and see what's underneath that tag (no harm is doing that, since the tag is not original). If the original VIN number has been altered or damaged, then the next step would be to look under the fenders as others have suggested. The GT/not GT issue is relatively unimportant compared to the possibility of possessing stolen property.
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I will suggest my friend to inspect underneath the tag.
Documents are OK here but... who knows...
Josep
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Yeah Josep....Lots of RED FLAGS with that car. That riveted tag needs to come off to see what is stamped underneath it. Who knows....The car could be stolen!!
:o)
Tony K.
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As stated earlier interior colors are way off, could be picture quality. Deluxe interior had carpet on the kick panels these do not. Does not mean it isn't a GT but with the off colors and the missing carpet I'd question the Pony/deluxe option.
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Think the car belonged to a German couple which get divorced. Though the car came from Germany (not sure!), but stolen car..... Honestly, I don't think so. Getting new plates (Spanish) from German one's, plus change them to historic vehicle is a lot of paperwork. Also, when the vehicle was first imported to EU you must fill many many papers plus pass through an accurate inspection, it doesn't matter in Germany, Spain, etc...
So no, I'm not thinking this could be a stolen car.. I'll keep investigating.!
Also, I don't think my friend really cares about the history of the car nor the state of it, concours, originality, etc.. This car has many aftermarket features, plus some originals as well..
Josep
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If it was originally exported to Germany, all the Mustang emblems would have been removed and replaced with T-5 emblems. Here's an example of a T-5 GT
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/jimerc21/t5gt/IMG_2709.jpg)
http://www.fordt5.com/photos.html (http://www.fordt5.com/photos.html)
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Hi Mel,
No, I'm not saying this was an export car, just that it belonged to a German couple. T5s should also have another tag in the engine bay area, like this one shown here from another guy around me. First one is in cowl part in drivers side I believe. Other one is door tag in same vehicle.