ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1970 Mustang => Topic started by: Mike_B_SVT on February 09, 2015, 08:30:59 PM
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Does anyone have a picture of the starter cable mounted to the side of the block on a '70 CJ car?
Does anyone know what size and finish bolt(s) would have been used?
Past research indicates that there were two clips bolted to the side of the block itself. http://www.428cobrajet.org/forum/index.php?topic=307.msg146069#msg146069
My car only had one clip, no longer bolted to the engine. I presume that the two clips would bolt to the block at the two holes circled in red in the pic below.
(http://i.imgur.com/jMOjj1Wl.jpg)
I Pulled my cable off the other night and it looks pretty gunky, but about the same as one that Jeff posted a pic of - which also appears to show only one cable clip.
(http://i.imgur.com/Ejb70Wyl.jpg)
Jeff's post:
On this car the engine was out and apart when I got access to it so no pictures from when the starter cable was still routed on/near the engine
When I saw this car that first time the cable was still attached to the solenoid and to the starter which was sitting on the strut rod support
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-201214135221.jpeg)
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My car only had one clip, no longer bolted to the engine. I presume that the two clips would bolt to the block at the two holes circled in red in the pic below.
Never seen those holes used for retaining the starter cable. Always found them on the motor mount
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i have to starter cable clamps on motor mount, i believe, i will take a pic tomorrow,
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Does anyone have a picture of the starter cable mounted to the side of the block on a '70 CJ car?
Does anyone know what size and finish bolt(s) would have been used?
Past research indicates that there were two clips bolted to the side of the block itself. http://www.428cobrajet.org/forum/index.php?topic=307.msg146069#msg146069
My car only had one clip, no longer bolted to the engine. I presume that the two clips would bolt to the block at the two holes circled in red in the pic below.
(http://i.imgur.com/jMOjj1Wl.jpg)
I Pulled my cable off the other night and it looks pretty gunky, but about the same as one that Jeff posted a pic of - which also appears to show only one cable clip.
(http://i.imgur.com/Ejb70Wyl.jpg)
Jeff's post:
I believe those holes were used with the shorter clip on 70 CJ . It hangs down and corresponds with notches in the 70 windage tray. 69 windage tray does not have notches. A little grouchy grumbly Indiana bird told me ;)
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jeff what is tag on your cable read doof or dozf. the 70 cable routing may have something to do with when & which plant used them . I had a late 70 Dearborn mach 1 & strap was on block panrail hole
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I've seen the pics of the '69 style cable mounting, with one or two clamps on the motor mounts. My cable clip looks nothing like those though - it looks just like the one that Jeff has in his pic.
The little paper tag on mine says Auto lite TSX D0ZF 14431C. I looked for any markings on the cable itself, but couldn't find any. The lugs on the ends have "CANADA" in small raised letters though. Comparing the lugs to the repro cable, the repro lugs are slightly smaller, and the repro cable is about 4" shorter. No idea if it is an original cable or not, but it has definitely seen better days, LOL!
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i saw this way in a pic somewhere, either 428cobrajet.org on this forum. deadnutson.com had a pic too. i will look through my pics, i download everything that will help me to get this car to almost stock.
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look at raymes pic & note the bolt in block & how the windage tray is notched out just below bolt. from what I seen on 70 (later cj anyway) the J strap hole uses that bolt & hook of J strap points down in notched windage tray area & cable runs along oil pan. the marti cable is too short & 69 is different than 70 & j hooks are shorter with rounded corners & 2 versions doof & dozf. the cables that had ID tags never had writing on cables & the cables that had writing ID printed on cables never had tags & its a vendor thing just like the electrical wireing ID #s.
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look at raymes pic & note the bolt in block & how the windage tray is notched out just below bolt. from what I seen on 70 (later cj anyway) the J strap hole uses that bolt & hook of J strap points down in notched windage tray area & cable runs along oil pan. the marti cable is too short & 69 is different than 70 & j hooks are shorter with rounded corners & 2 versions doof & dozf. the cables that had ID tags never had writing on cables & the cables that had writing ID printed on cables never had tags & its a vendor thing just like the electrical wireing ID #s.
Awesome info, thanks Ed and Ray!
Hmm... if my cable is too short, then I guess I'm kinda stuck with connecting it to the motor mount again for now.
I'll need to track down one or two of those bolts for the block as well.
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jeff what is tag on your cable read doof or dozf. the 70 cable routing may have something to do with when & which plant used them . I had a late 70 Dearborn mach 1 & strap was on block panrail hole
Just to make things clear
So you've seen those holes used for a very late 70 CJ example? Never seen that but keep my eyes open for it. On the 70 Dearborn posted in my example those holes do not appear to have been used for any purposes - but it was an earlier car (Oct/Nov 69 build).
In response to an earlier question - markings on the cable from my pictures is not legible
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you can see both bolts screwed back into block above panrail for starter j straps in raymes pic. the 2 bolts are negative cable to block ground bolts
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you can see both bolts screwed back into block above panrail for starter j straps in raymes pic. the 2 bolts are negative cable to block ground bolts
Thanks Ed. To clarify - the bolts are the same as what is used to attach the negative battery cable to the block, behind the alternator on a '70?
Would the original finish have been Phosphate / P&O on those? I don't imagine they would have been on the block when it was originally painted, but maybe?
Ah, one more question... If two clips are used on the cable, would both clips be wrapped around the heat shield sleeve?
Was the purpose of the sleeve to protect the cable from the heat of the block, or from the heat of the exhaust pipes near the starter? I've always wondered about seeing the placement of it at the motor mount...
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Joe sikoras 69 cobra jet pics, i saw the two cable brackets mounted on the motor mount somewhere else. I like it better than using the motor bolts, wouldnt want to mess up the pretty blue paint.
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amk has the bolts goldish plating & added after engine paint & sheathing goes on both straps
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Thanks again Ed, Ray, and everyone! I appreciate the info and help with the details.
Have a great day!
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I removed and cleaned up my starter cable clip, so I thought I would add some pics here for future reference.
(http://i.imgur.com/WKq2q6nl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/7MJmQcWl.jpg)
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Digging up an old topic in the hope of finding some new information...
I started a topic in the 428 CJ registry forum when I found out that the reproduction starter cable I bought a while back is too short to be secured with the two J-straps that Ed mentioned earlier in this topic. Here's that topic for background info:
https://www.428cobrajet.org/forum/index.php?topic=25106.0
Knowing that the repro is too short doesn't help in figuring out which engineering number should appear on a "correct" cable and how long that cable should be. Does anyone know? What was originally factory-installed?
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Knowing that the repro is too short doesn't help in figuring out which engineering number should appear on a "correct" cable and how long that cable should be. Does anyone know? What was originally factory-installed?
Asking another way, what's considered "correct" for the MCA's Concours and Thoroughbred classes?
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The part number printed on my probably original cable is D0ZF-14431-C and has 2 clamps. December 3rd Dearborn.
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The part number printed on my probably original cable is D0ZF-14431-C and has 2 clamps. December 3rd Dearborn.
Thank you! Do you know how long it is?
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Thank you! Do you know how long it is?
I couldn't remove it but I measured it using string and it is very close to 46 1/2 inches long.
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I couldn't remove it but I measured it using string and it is very close to 46 1/2 inches long.
Thanks for helping out Carl. Is that end to end or from some other landmark on the cable?
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Thanks for helping out Carl. Is that end to end or from some other landmark on the cable?
End to end. It was roughly 26" from the solenoid end to the near side of the first hook and 20.5" from there to the end of the starter terminal. Roughly as the cable is bent nearly 90 degrees at the starter end.
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Thanks Carl
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I couldn't remove it but I measured it using string and it is very close to 46 1/2 inches long.
That's how I measured mine as well ~ string. Trying to be as accurate as I could. Mine also measured 46.5" long, tip to tip.
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I braved the bark scorpions and AZ brown spiders to remove the cable and measure it. It actually appears to be closer to 45.5" with me stretching it as much as I could.
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thats a good 70 cable picture & i am sure black cable has shrunk a little in the SW heat . remember that 2 J strap cable is on a dec dearborn car & the early 70 cj cars may have had the 70 b9 cable with just 1 strap but they are the short rounded corner bigger hole j strap like i had made because the only repo starter cable j strap is the longer smaller hole squared off type.
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The marti cable dozf-14431-c 46'' should work with the 70 j -strap
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I braved the bark scorpions and AZ brown spiders to remove the cable and measure it. It actually appears to be closer to 45.5" with me stretching it as much as I could.
That's a great pic, and solid evidence of how they were. With comparatively few 70 CJ's built, it seems hard to find good examples of details sometimes.
Thank you for your bravery!
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Just adding a couple of pictures to illustrate one attachment point as part of the routing
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/10/6-080718174831.jpeg)
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Say Jeff are you sure? Pics look like battery ground cable not starter cable?
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Say Jeff are you sure? Pics look like battery ground cable not starter cable?
Dropped the second picture. Just up loaded the other one and thought it could help here only as a picture that shows the starter cable to the solenoid. Not really in question but at least shows retaining hardware there
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I was doing a search on starter cables for my mustang and found this thread which is over 1.5 years old, but found it interesting enough that I had to respond as to what my car had on it. I too bought my new cable setup from Marti a number of years ago and bought two J straps also because that is what my cable was mounted with, but now find that both are incorrect for my application, cable to short and J straps long and small hole.
I have the same cable setup as Carl has indicated and would like to post my findings also as my car is a very early Dearborn built 1970 Mach 1. The cable is around 45 to 46 inch long and has two short J straps with holes for the 1/2" plain head bolts like the grounding cable, which attach it to the block along the oil pan where the notches in the windage tray are.
I can not find an engineering number on the cable or Canada on the ends, so assume it is the one manufactured without and had a tag by the solenoid. Additionally besides the two shorter J straps the mesh insulation sheath needs to be 14" long as the Marti and Dead Nuts cables only have 9" which is to short to bolt the straps to the block using the threaded mounting holes. I have included the Marti parts in the pics for a visual comparison and the three bolts are the original bolts for the start and ground cable mounting, I just had them plated in silver zinc.
So to this end, I am not clear if Marti or some other manufacture is now building or going to build the correct cable and J straps to match what was originally on my car?
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We had a similar discussion on the 428 Cobra Jet registry forum: https://www.428cobrajet.org/forum/index.php?topic=25106.0
Cutting to the chase, I believe the D0ZF-C cable, 6ga, 45" in length, is the one you want. Ed Meyer reproduced the J-straps.
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Thanks Scott, I did read through your registry forum thread before my post here, all interesting. There was talk of Marti custom building some cables in #4 gage cable @ 45" long, do you know if that ever happened??
The problem for me is to find a cable #4 or #6 gage @ 45 " long that has 14" of mesh type insulator sheath on it else it will NOT match my original factory cable install as a shorter covering will not locate in both J straps because of the distance between the bolt holes on the block. Also my J straps are in very good condition and will get them plated in silver zinc and reuse the rubber grommets, if not I can get some from Ed Meyer.
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There was talk of Marti custom building some cables in #4 gage cable @ 45" long, do you know if that ever happened??
I don't know, but I do know that they can sometimes make one-offs of some parts. They made some custom-stamped accessory belts for me, for example. It might be worth a phone call to see what they're able and willing to do.
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Scott, I spoke with Eric at Marti and he indicated that they now have available two starter cables that are 46" long with 14" mesh sleeves, one has an DOZF-14431 engineering number, he was not sure if it was a -A or -C and the other is plain with no markings. Mine cable is plain with no markings and I will purchase that, but would also like to get the correct tag that goes on it, do you know who makes the ID tags for that cable?
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ECS Automotive maybe?
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Thanks, I guess I spoke to soon and for future reference, upon review Marti has advise that their unmarked cable is 48" long and the marked cable is a C8ZF and is only 44" long and not 46" long, but both have 14" looms.
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ecs makes the white paper id tag for cables as I sent him original c8zf and doof and dozf tags to make copies years ago.
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Much appreciated for the update, do you know which tag I need for my version of the cable as mine was missing the tag, and has no markings and is plain?
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... Marti has advise that their unmarked cable is 48" long and the marked cable is a C8ZF and is only 44" long and not 46" long, but both have 14" looms.
Do you know Marti's part number for the long, unmarked cable? I looked on their site but I'm only seeing the same old battery cables listed. I don't know the "secret handshake" to get to the page where they keep the good stuff ;-)
~ I'm thinking that with the longer cable I'll be able to use the shorter sleeve from the repro cable I already have, and basically "recreate" the original cable that came off my car. ...unless someone knows how I can just order a correct Boss 429 version of cables? (I believe Ed mentioned the B9 cars having the 1 cable clamp version of battery cable, like what was on my early Oct CJ).
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If you want the 48" plain cable call Marti and speak to Eric, he will advise you on how to order the cable you want as they need to be ordered via email and he will give you the address when you call. Regarding putting a shorter loom on the cable, it comes with a 14" long loom and what I would do is just shorten the one that comes already on it, because the loom does not fit over the end of the cable at least not on the one I have, and believe they are installed on the cable before the end connection is molded.
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Scott regarding the tag from ECS, I check all my decals from ECS and NDP and I already have a D00F-14431-D TSX Autolite tag for the starter cable from ECS. Can you or someone advise approximately where on the cable the tag is mounted, I believe someone mentioned near the solenoid connect stud, an approximate distance from that connection point would be great to know.
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Scott regarding the tag from ECS, I check all my decals from ECS and NDP and I already have a D00F-14431-D TSX Autolite tag for the starter cable from ECS. Can you or someone advise approximately where on the cable the tag is mounted, I believe someone mentioned near the solenoid connect stud, an approximate distance from that connection point would be great to know.
You might want to read this before settling on the D0OF-D cable: http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=15599.0
If it's 41" long, it's too short. The D0ZF-C cable is about 46.5" long and, as mentioned in the topic from the registry forum, was confirmed as original on at least one car. I had some labels made so I could have one for my car, and I have several left over. I don't have an exact installation measurement taken from an original cable, though. I just placed mine a few inches down from the lug near the starter solenoid and called it a day. The ECS web site says this: "Cable routes from starter solenoid to starter terminal. Tag is located approximately 11 inches down the wire from the point that it connects to the solenoid. Note: 1964 1/2 to 1967 did not have a tag. The part numbers were printed directly on the wire."
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That's pretty much perfect, exactly what I was looking for, thanks Scott great pictures too.
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BTW I got my old original J-straps and bolts silver zinc plated and put the repo rubber grommets in them and they turned out real nice, from the picture you can also see the difference in size and between them and the repro J-straps.
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While digging through my disassembly pictures I finally found a couple of routing pics of my original starter cable which Ford installed using the two shorter J-straps and used the 1/2" bolts to attached them to the block and not the motor mount. Thought I would post them for reference, the cable removed picture I posted earlier in this topic.
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Great photos and u need to send them over to marti since for years I been tring to tell 70 cj people and marti that the 70 cable was routed on block instead of motor mounts and I had the special 70 cj and boss 429 straps made and been trying to sell them but not many people understand this routing since no assembly manual photos show this area of block.
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Thanks for praise and support Ed, I am glad someone agrees with me regarding this routing on the Dearborn 428 CJ's. I will again speak with Marti, as they would not custom make the cable for me as it was not documented anywhere, so I have purchased their 48" cable with 14" loom, which will work fine but is a bit longer than the original @ 46". It would also not take much to reproduce the shorter J-straps as they are pretty much the same as the present longer offering and would just need to be stamped out a little shorter with a radiused end and with a 1/2" hole for the bolts. As I indicated previously the bolts are exactly the same as the one used to attach the ground cable to the block. Additionally I believe this routing also keeps the starter cable further away from the exhaust manifold in the motor mount area and helps prevent heat damage to the cable. BTW as you can see from the build date of my car they started installing the starter cable like this I am guessing right from the start of the 70 production run at Dearborn.
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Yes but not sure about NJ cars or if any running change. I had the 70 j straps made and was selling them with the correct bolts. The 2 bolts were neg. cable to block bolts not the rear ground strap head bolts as they were smaller size.
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Yes but not sure about NJ cars or if any running change. I had the 70 j straps made and was selling them with the correct bolts. The 2 bolts were neg. cable to block bolts not the rear ground strap head bolts as they were smaller size.
My unrestored October Dearborn is the same starter cable as my December Dearborn. By the same I mean ~46" D0ZF-C with two hangers bolted to the block.
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Yes I am also saying the 1970 ground cable bolt which connects to the front of the block and not the smaller grounding strap bolts used on the back of the 1969 engines.
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Jerry,
Where does the cable mount to the front of the block? I am trying to figure out the cables. I purchased the repro solenoid cable mounts from ED. I saw the long mount you bought. That looks like the pic Jeff posted of the strap near the solenoid for the battery ground
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The cable is mounted with two short J-straps on the block, not on the motor mount, there are NO J-straps near the solenoid which is mount on the fender apron near the back of the battery above the voltage regulator.
I only put the longer repop J-strap in my picture to show the difference between the factory short and the repop long.
The original cable as shown in my pictures runs from the starter terminal down to the short J-strap mounted on the block, the mesh loom sticks out about 1" before the J-strap towards the starter.
The cable then runs through the mesh loom directly along the oil pan/windage tray/block seam to and through the second J-strap, then along with about the last 4" of mesh loom the cable routes up towards the solenoid between the frame and exhaust heat shield along with the alternator wires and ground cable. The cable is not marked marked but has an engineering number tag placed on it about 11" down from the solenoid.
Look earlier in this topic I posted two pictures of the starter cable routing, one in front of the motor mount and one from behind showing the routing right to the starter.
The factory 428 CJ block comes with the two 1/2" threaded holes in it and the windage tray should be notched out where the J-straps bolt to the block, ford also used the same 1/2" plain bolt to mount the J-straps as was used to fasten the ground cable to the front of the block.
I have now also posted an other picture which shows the starter cable routing looking for underneath towards the heat shield and solenoid above it, which is not visible obviously.
I have decided to also post a picture of the restored short J-straps mounted back on my engine as I am in the process of final assembly getting it ready for my cam breakin run.
I trust this help you understand the 1970 Dearborn built 428 CJ cable routing as it came on my car and as Ed has indicated was typical for them although has never been documented.
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Just a follow up on my new cable installation to replicate the original, this is what it looks like, I have not crimped the J-straps closed onto the grommets yet and will do that on final install in car, but all is identical to my original 1970 428CJ Dearborn factory starter cable routing and install.
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Just a follow up on my new cable installation to replicate the original, this is what it looks like, I have not crimped the J-straps closed onto the grommets yet and will do that on final install in car, but all is identical to my original 1970 428CJ Dearborn factory starter cable routing and install.
Now you need to search threads about starters so that you can properly detail your starter so that it looks as correct as your starter cable routing.
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Bob, yes I know the start is supposed to be all black except for the aluminum nose piece. I had the two shields and long bolts chemically cleaned and zinc plated as they had some rust, I painted the dome one, and was going to paint the ring shield after install because of the paper gasket under it and get all that at once. I just have not got around to it and it is temporarily installed now for mockup and the engine cam break-in and test run. The starter, smog tubing and other will be removed for final detailing and then re-installed before going into the car.
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Bob, yes I know the start is supposed to be all black except for the aluminum nose piece. I had the two shields and long bolts chemically cleaned and zinc plated as they had some rust, I painted the one, and was going to paint the ring shield after install because of the paper gasket under it and get all that at once. I just have not got around to it and it is temporarily installed now for mockup and the engine cam break-in and test run. The starter, smog tubing and other will be removed for final detailing and then re-installed before going into the car.
Gasket goes under bendix cover and band clamp.
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Thanks, yes I used the original thick gasket under the Bendix cover and 2 wraps of 1.5" wide white/cream colour masking tape under band clamp.
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Bob, yes I know the start is supposed to be all black except for the aluminum nose piece. I had the two shields and long bolts chemically cleaned and zinc plated as they had some rust, I painted the dome one, and was going to paint the ring shield after install because of the paper gasket under it and get all that at once. I just have not got around to it and it is temporarily installed now for mockup and the engine cam break-in and test run. The starter, smog tubing and other will be removed for final detailing and then re-installed before going into the car.
After reviewing your post I thought I should mention that the unit was painted as assembly and so the nose will have a overspray area around it's perimeter of the barrel and nose joining edge from the spray process of the back portion.
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Thanks Bob, yes I have seen that comment before also and as much as its correct I am not trying to build a 100% concours correct trailer queen, as my intent has always been to build a really nice show and shine "driver", that looks pretty much correct but will withstand the rigors of driving and reduce my cleaning maintenance.
Example, the bellhousing plate the starter is mounted to and the motor mount brackets are powder coated to look like bare metal. The bolts, washers and nuts holding the motor mount brackets and NOS motor mounts are ceramic coated to replicate phosphate and oil, as are many other parts on the car that are supposed to be phosphate and oil. This is my first and last mustang and will this car ever see more than 5000 miles after completion or be driven in the rain intentionally, probably not, but this is how am building it.
Regarding the starter, I glass beaded the barrel, end cover and nose housing then painted it aluminum colour and replicated the red dot paint marking on the nose which will never be seen. The internals of the starter where in excellent condition as it was rebuilt just before I got the car in the late 80's. I painted both the mating faces of the barrel and the end cover so they where not bare metal and prone to rusting before I assembled them. The Bendix spring and cover, the band cover and long bolts where all zinc plated to remove any rust and coat the inside facing of those parts to help prevent rusting in the future. I did all this rather than just assembling and painting the outside semi-gloss black and having the bare metal faces and other exposed to the driving elements.
So as I have indicated I will be painting the starters black exterior again before final engine installation but will I put some overspray on the nicely painted aluminum nose, we'll see, thanks again for you continue support and comments they are much appreciated, as I hope my input is also.
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Thanks Bob, yes I have seen that comment before also and as much as its correct I am not trying to build a 100% concours correct trailer queen, as my intent has always been to build a really nice show and shine "driver", that looks pretty much correct but will withstand the rigors of driving and reduce my cleaning maintenance.
Example, the bellhousing plate the starter is mounted to and the motor mount brackets are powder coated to look like bare metal. The bolts, washers and nuts holding the motor mount brackets and NOS motor mounts are ceramic coated to replicate phosphate and oil, as are many other parts on the car that are supposed to be phosphate and oil. This is my first and last mustang and will this car ever see more than 5000 miles after completion or be driven in the rain intentionally, probably not, but this is how am building it.
Regarding the starter, I glass beaded the barrel, end cover and nose housing then painted it aluminum colour and replicated the red dot paint marking on the nose which will never be seen. The internals of the starter where in excellent condition as it was rebuilt just before I got the car in the late 80's. I painted both the mating faces of the barrel and the end cover so they where not bare metal and prone to rusting before I assembled them. The Bendix spring and cover, the band cover and long bolts where all zinc plated to remove any rust and coat the inside facing of those parts to help prevent rusting in the future. I did all this rather than just assembling and painting the outside semi-gloss black and having the bare metal faces and other exposed to the driving elements.
So as I have indicated I will be painting the starters black exterior again before final engine installation but will I put some overspray on the nicely painted aluminum nose, we'll see, thanks again for you continue support and comments they are much appreciated, as I hope my input is also.
Just in case you care given the other concours aspects on your engine build, FYI the oilpan plug and gasket were typically painted because they were installed prior to engine paint.
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Yes thanks Bob, I intentionally left the plug out and just put a fine thread bolt in during engine painting so I would get paint under the gasket area (NO bare metal), and had the plug zinc plated. I will may not paint them, but will definitely not do that until after all the engine break-in, test running and oil changes are completed.
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Yes thanks Bob, I intentionally left the plug out and just put a fine thread bolt in during engine painting so I would get paint under the gasket area (NO bare metal), and had the plug zinc plated. I will may not paint them, but will definitely not do that until after all the engine break-in, test running and oil changes are completed.
Maybe you are not aware but the plating will degrade much faster then the paint to the elements in this instance given your mandate of "looks pretty much correct but will withstand the rigors of driving and reduce my cleaning maintenance." . ;)
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Yes probably correct, but paint does chip easily on bolts and is much more work to repair where the plug can be easily re-plated if needed. I will probably paint it though. thanks
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Yes probably correct, but paint does chip easily on bolts and is much more work to repair where the plug can be easily re-plated if needed. I will probably paint it though. thanks
A chipped oil pan bolt can be prepared and painted in place without removing oil. This can be done in a very narrow time frame . A oilpan bolt that is plated on the other hand needs more attention and has to have the oil pan drained ,bolt taken out ,stripped of finish and plated before being returned to service in the oilpan in a much more extended and labor intensive time frame. Regardless if you choose to paint your bolt be sure to rough up /scuff surface
of the plated bolt prior to painting as paint does not stick well to a smooth shiny plated surface and will chip easily if painted over plating with no other preparation.Original oil pan bolts are bare steel because they were typically painted.
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Some good points Thanks
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Some good points Thanks
Your welcome just trying to help.
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Yes I know, and don't get me wrong I appreciated it.