Author Topic: early 1967 289 4V ENGINE Tag (bolt-on)  (Read 6713 times)

Offline 67gtasanjose

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early 1967 289 4V ENGINE Tag (bolt-on)
« on: March 21, 2014, 08:34:12 AM »
I would like to find an engine tag for my early 67 Mustang 289.
Build date: Nov. 2., 1966 (tag date code H,J or K preffered ?)
4 barrel, premium fuel engine. (tag code 235)
Automatic Transmission (suffix code-A)
San Jose Built (not sure if it would be Cleveland or Windsor plant)
Thermactor Emissions (if it matters)
Air Conditioning ( I don't think this detail matters)
Question is also, what SHOULD the layout be on this tag, for those of you who have Bob Mannel's book.
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline tim_morrison82

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Re: early 1967 289 4V ENGINE Tag (bolt-on)
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2014, 10:40:33 AM »
do you want to send the tag info to www.martiautoworks.com and get one made?
San Jose built (Mid Dec 67) Non GT J code Coupe.
Wimbledon White with Parchment Bench seat,
Visibility Group, Power Steering, Power Disc Brakes, Selectaire Conditioner, AM radio, Heavy Duty suspension, Deluxe Belts, Deluxe Wheel Covers, 3.00:1 rear.

Unique 1 of 1 car. Just like every other car...

Offline 67gta289

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Re: early 1967 289 4V ENGINE Tag (bolt-on)
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2014, 08:00:49 PM »
They made C code GTAs, so you could go original with the tag, then say that you are mimicking a dealer intake/carb swap out.

Either way, the tag location is the same for a 289 thermactor engine, as shown in the picture.

The only data point I can offer close to your request is a Dec 20 C code, DSO 72 thermactor.  This was an E-236-B Windsor built engine at level 15.  The data code was "M", with no additional letters or numbers.  Kind of tight from a timing perspective.
John
67 289 GTA Dec 20 1966 San Jose
7R02C156xxx
MCA 74660

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: early 1967 289 4V ENGINE Tag (bolt-on)
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2014, 06:45:39 PM »
OK, I have found where i can get the bolt-on tags made up, but I now need the correct numbers to have stamped onto it.
I understand maybe Bob Mannel's book might help too, but I do not have one (yet)
So again, here are the stats:
67 San Jose built 289 4V Auto & Air with Thermactor. Scheduled build date Nov. 2, 1966
I've also installed a 3L00 8 inch locker out of a 69 Comet into it. I've found some tag info on that one, but maybe a confirmation there too.

Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline DM_1964

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Re: early 1967 289 4V ENGINE Tag (bolt-on)
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2014, 09:45:24 PM »
If they would do it for me, sure I would. Problem being that my VIN isn't correct
Marti Auto Works do cater if you don't have a tag, you can provide your VIN, and they'll research and provide you with an exact engine tag to suit...
Regards,
Dom
64 1/2 Caspian Blue Convertible - Dearborn

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: early 1967 289 4V ENGINE Tag (bolt-on)
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2014, 09:47:46 PM »
Marti Auto Works do cater if you don't have a tag, you can provide your VIN, and they'll research and provide you with an exact engine tag to suit...

+1  Just got mine for my Boss - just provided the VIN.

Prepare to wait a while. ;)
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline 7R02A

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Re: early 1967 289 4V ENGINE Tag (bolt-on)
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2014, 08:18:17 PM »
I have a car that is exactly what you are looking for except my build date is late December.  Tag is as follows:
289 C 67 14
6-M E 235-A

My car is an A code with Thermactor, DSO 71, PS, PB, built at San Jose.
Hope this helps,
John
John
1967 Fastback, A code, automatic transmission, Deluxe interior, AC, PS, P disc brakes, tilt, consoles, exterior group, fold down, DSO 71.
San Jose build, Actual build: Dec 17, 66.

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: early 1967 289 4V ENGINE Tag (bolt-on)
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2014, 09:23:17 PM »

289 C 67 14
6-M E 235-A

My car is an A code with Thermactor, DSO 71, PS, PB, built at San Jose.
Hope this helps,
John
Helps a lot John, thamks!
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline 67gta289

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Re: early 1967 289 4V ENGINE Tag (bolt-on)
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2014, 08:51:22 AM »
I have a car that is exactly what you are looking for except my build date is late December.  Tag is as follows:
289 C 67 14
6-M E 235-A

My car is an A code with Thermactor, DSO 71, PS, PB, built at San Jose.
Hope this helps,
John

Thanks John.  Can you tell us if your engine heads have internal ports or use external "logs" for air injection?

Mine was built Dec 20, but a C code, also DSO 71 with thermactor.
289 E 67 FoMoCo
M E-236-B 15

Observations:
1. The A code came from Cleveland, whereas the C code came from Windsor
2. Both the A "235" and C "236" match the Mannel book Appendex A page 6 table.
3. The C was at level 15, but the A was at level 14.  In agreement as well in Mannel's book, with the switch from 14 to 15 occurring in November in Windsor, but in February in Cleveland.
4. Notes 13 and 14 in appendix A page 9 indicates that the engine code suffix A corresponds to level 14, and B corresponds to level 15.

Level 14 to 15 changes:
1. Heavier duty springs
2. Recalibrated carb/dist/timing and higher lift cam (C code/auto only) for improved emissions reduction
3. Accessory pulley sizes
4. Heads with machined internal air passages for thermactor air injection

What is most interesting is that I do not see anything in the book that discusses how the engine tag distinguished between a thermactor and non thermactor engine.

Before looking at Mannel's Appendix A "Engine tag numbers", I would have assumed that the core number (235/236/etc) would have been unique for thermactor engines.  But that did not occur until 68 (283 = J code with thermactor, 284 = J code with Imco)

Since there was nothing to distinguish the two in the tagging, I can think of two options:

1. They relied on the obvious visual cues.  Not likely - there is enough human error with a numbering system.  Relying on visual cues is even worse.
2. The thermactor system was installed at the factory along with other accessories.  But that does not make sense because the carb/dist/timing was different for thermactor.

So I'm missing something.  Hopefully not obvious.

It is also strange that according to Mannel's book, and based on the two engine tags discussed here, that Ford used the department of redundancy department plan for levels.  To use the "A" suffix, and denote "14" on the tag, and to use "B" that corresponds with "15" is a waste.  And Ford was usually not wasteful.  I was really hoping that the "A" suffix was for non thermactor, while the "B" was for thermactor, but that did not work out.

I suppose we need more examples.

To 67gtasanjose - if you really want to get the engine correct, I suggest you pick up the aforementioned book.  There are a lot of differences between the Cleveland and Windsor engines, and differences as mentioned between level 14 and 15.
John
67 289 GTA Dec 20 1966 San Jose
7R02C156xxx
MCA 74660

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: early 1967 289 4V ENGINE Tag (bolt-on)
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2014, 09:18:52 AM »
Thanks John.  Can you tell us if your engine heads have internal ports or use external "logs" for air injection?

Mine was built Dec 20, but a C code, also DSO 71 with thermactor.
289 E 67 FoMoCo
M E-236-B 15

Observations:
1. The A code came from Cleveland, whereas the C code came from Windsor
2. Both the A "235" and C "236" match the Mannel book Appendex A page 6 table.
3. The C was at level 15, but the A was at level 14.  In agreement as well in Mannel's book, with the switch from 14 to 15 occurring in November in Windsor, but in February in Cleveland.
4. Notes 13 and 14 in appendix A page 9 indicates that the engine code suffix A corresponds to level 14, and B corresponds to level 15.

Level 14 to 15 changes:
1. Heavier duty springs
2. Recalibrated carb/dist/timing and higher lift cam (C code/auto only) for improved emissions reduction
3. Accessory pulley sizes
4. Heads with machined internal air passages for thermactor air injection

What is most interesting is that I do not see anything in the book that discusses how the engine tag distinguished between a thermactor and non thermactor engine.

Before looking at Mannel's Appendix A "Engine tag numbers", I would have assumed that the core number (235/236/etc) would have been unique for thermactor engines.  But that did not occur until 68 (283 = J code with thermactor, 284 = J code with Imco)

Since there was nothing to distinguish the two in the tagging, I can think of two options:

1. They relied on the obvious visual cues.  Not likely - there is enough human error with a numbering system.  Relying on visual cues is even worse.
2. The thermactor system was installed at the factory along with other accessories.  But that does not make sense because the carb/dist/timing was different for thermactor.

So I'm missing something.  Hopefully not obvious.

It is also strange that according to Mannel's book, and based on the two engine tags discussed here, that Ford used the department of redundancy department plan for levels.  To use the "A" suffix, and denote "14" on the tag, and to use "B" that corresponds with "15" is a waste.  And Ford was usually not wasteful.  I was really hoping that the "A" suffix was for non thermactor, while the "B" was for thermactor, but that did not work out.

I suppose we need more examples.

To 67gtasanjose - if you really want to get the engine correct, I suggest you pick up the aforementioned book.  There are a lot of differences between the Cleveland and Windsor engines, and differences as mentioned between level 14 and 15.
John, you are asking some of the same questions I had. e.g. Cleveland must have produced the 4V, Windsor the 2V, this was one of them.
Change Level 14 and 15 also must come into play here too, with this discussion and another thread I was on, it looked as though there were two different dates on the change level too.
As far as the suffix "A" and "B", I was under the understanding that denotes MANUAL or AUTO transmissions.
I also understand the "E" Prefixes presumably reffer to the Thermactor engines

I am also interested in knowing if the other John's car was external or internal injection...that being the 2nd question I still have.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 09:21:02 AM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline 67gta289

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Re: early 1967 289 4V ENGINE Tag (bolt-on)
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2014, 09:47:18 AM »
For 1967

231 = C code -man trans.
236 = C code -auto trans.

235 = A code -auto trans.
250 = A code -man trans.

245 = K code -man trans.
246 = K code -auto trans.

The A/B suffix according to Mannel's book, at least for the year/engine we are focusing on, represents level 14/15.

Since the core tag number is different for auto vs. man, there is no reason to change the suffix for the same thing.
John
67 289 GTA Dec 20 1966 San Jose
7R02C156xxx
MCA 74660

Offline 7R02A

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Re: early 1967 289 4V ENGINE Tag (bolt-on)
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2014, 08:13:32 PM »
My car has the internal ports for air injection.
John
John
1967 Fastback, A code, automatic transmission, Deluxe interior, AC, PS, P disc brakes, tilt, consoles, exterior group, fold down, DSO 71.
San Jose build, Actual build: Dec 17, 66.

Offline 67gta289

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Re: early 1967 289 4V ENGINE Tag (bolt-on)
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2014, 08:23:35 AM »
My car has the internal ports for air injection.

Thanks John.  Not what I expected based on reading Mannel's book, page 7-6, item 7B1.  I don't think I'm misinterpreting the book.  The book did come with an errata sheet listing 2 pages of changes to correct errors and omissions.  I looked through the most recent list of changes on the web site, but there are no corrections to chapter 7 at all. http://www.fordsmallblock.com/frame.htm
John
67 289 GTA Dec 20 1966 San Jose
7R02C156xxx
MCA 74660

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: early 1967 289 4V ENGINE Tag (bolt-on)
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2014, 08:41:49 AM »
Thanks John.  Not what I expected based on reading Mannel's book, page 7-6, item 7B1.  I don't think I'm misinterpreting the book.  The book did come with an errata sheet listing 2 pages of changes to correct errors and omissions.  I looked through the most recent list of changes on the web site, but there are no corrections to chapter 7 at all. http://www.fordsmallblock.com/frame.htm
I was half expecting the same, based on your exherts from the book. Actually not too surprised. There probably isn't a lot of info printed on these early t/e engines that is 100% correct.
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: early 1967 289 4V ENGINE Tag (bolt-on)
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2014, 08:46:08 AM »
7R02A John, would you mind uploading a picture or private messaging a shot of your tag? It sounds like it is only maybe 4 to 6 Weeks incorrect by date for what I am search. Would like to see the layout.
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments